EP 06: Nonprofit Board Members: Friend or Foe?

- Original: "you have to know who you are as an organization and you have to know who you want on your board" → Revised: "it really helps to know who you are as an organization and who you want on your board"

- Original: "the first step really is internally with your staff... really decide what kind of board you want" → Revised: "one helpful first step is working internally with your staff to figure out what kind of board you want"

- Original: "you really do need to set that expectation with them" → Revised: "it really helps to set that expectation with them"

- Original: "you have to do that, right? You have to give your board members expectations" → Revised: "it goes a long way when you give your board members clear expectations"

- Original: "you need to find internal champions in your board... and you need to leverage them" → Revised: "what we've seen work is finding internal champions on your board and leveraging them"

- Original: "Board members, set your expectations, have some compassion for the hardworking staff" → Revised: "For board members out there, setting expectations, having compassion for hardworking staff — that goes a long way"

- Original: "I don't care who they are, I don't care how big of an influence they are, get them off your board" → Revised: "no matter who they are or how big their influence, it may be time to part ways"

- Original: "board members really need to ask themselves why am I on this board" → Revised: "it's worth board members asking themselves, why am I on this board?"

Jeff Porter: Welcome to the Elevate Your Event Podcast, where we talk about how to plan and execute an unforgettable event that will dazzle your guests and generate more income for your organization. From fundraising and securing trendy auction items to event production and logistics, get the best tips and advice from seasoned fundraising and event professionals who have been in your shoes.

Jeff Porter: Okay, well, welcome back to Elevate Your Event. We have a special guest today, Mike Pappy. Hello! So, Mike, introduce yourself, and then Kristen and I will introduce ourselves as well, and we'll dive into the topic.

Mike Pappy: Fantastic. Thank you. Mike Pappy, I am the founder of One Goat Foundation. We are a nonprofit dedicated to supporting first responders here in Colorado with financial assistance. Whenever they need help — whether it's mental health therapy, getting through a month with bills — we've also covered some funeral services, which is pretty sad, but it's a critical need. And we've helped connect them with other organizations that support first responders here in Colorado in different ways.

Jeff Porter: That's awesome. So for One Goat, how long have you guys been around? And describe your organization a little bit. I know you're the founder, but are you the executive director, a board member — what's your role?

Mike Pappy: Good question. We've been around for about three years now. We've done fundraising events for the last two. I hold the office of president of the board, founder. It was my idea to bring this into fruition and help first responders. So I drive the mission as well.

Jeff Porter: Great. And how big is your board?

Mike Pappy: We have 13 people on the board, including me.

Jeff Porter: Wow. All right. Well, let's go ahead and introduce yourself, Kristen, because you've got some specific board experience as well.

Kristen: Yeah, so I work for Handbid now doing marketing and the Elevate Your Event podcast. But in another life, I was an executive director and a professional fundraiser, and I worked with a lot of boards. So I think I'm low-key trying to be devil's advocate here — like, well, that's great, but what if your board member, just hypothetically, did this? Just hypothetical.

Jeff Porter: And I think from running events for thousands of organizations, we got to see the other side of that as well — the staff side, looking at how a particular board member is either helping or hurting the staff. So when we were talking about what elements of the event we really want to discuss, one that came up specifically was board members. And I almost think we titled this "Board Members: Friend or Foe?" Because sometimes they can be both, right?

Mike Pappy: For sure.

Jeff Porter: So what we wanted to do, Mike, was really pick your brain about what kind of role your board has had in the fundraising events you've done so far — where that's worked and where it hasn't. And then how that falls into the bigger scope of what you want your board members doing in general for your organization.

Mike Pappy: Okay, that's a big topic.

Jeff Porter: I know. We have some time to talk about it.

Mike Pappy: To start with the first part of that question, from a fundraising standpoint — the board that I put together, and just to back up a little bit — when I started One Goat, there were a lot of friends and people that I opened it up to. We were talking about the events and what we wanted to do. Our big event started out being a golf tournament.

Mike Pappy: Being three years into it, the board started with people I know who maybe felt some connection to a first responder — or not — but they felt a connection to doing something above and beyond their day-to-day, and they wanted to be involved. I'm very novice at this, right? When I started, very little nonprofit experience — in fact, zero.

Mike Pappy: I do sit on a different board of an education company here in Colorado, and my experience with them is really just showing up to two meetings a year, maybe a board dinner, and not doing too much. But that's by design. They run that organization like a corporation. They do great work with schools and STEM and teachers. So I kind of took a piece of that and said, I don't want my board to feel obligated to do anything. But you're going to find those individuals that say they want to help, and they are just doers — people that want to dive in and help. Not that they just take direction; they give a lot of opinions as well, but they also understand they're solving a problem. And what I'm learning is that finding more and more of those people on your board is critical. That's the way I'm starting to reshape things.

Mike Pappy: With the success we've had — and success is a loose word in the sense that we've awarded gifts to a lot of first responders this year alone — it's mind-boggling how many of them need help. As we're doing that, we're hearing more and more, "You should bring this across the country." Well, I have no idea how to do that, especially with how we're funded — through events, to your point — which is why this is a perfect discussion topic.

Mike Pappy: The way I started with the board is people I wanted to hang out with, right? If I'm going to start something, I want to be with people I want to be with. Not with the so-called board member that's going to be a problem. And I don't have any of those on my board. But we're a complete volunteer board — nobody gets paid. And as a leader, running the board, I need to be stronger about what I ask and what I expect them to do. I can't do it all myself.

Mike Pappy: A lot of them — there are two or three off the top of my head — have jumped in. Another one told me, "Look, I don't want to make decisions. I just want to help." And he shows up at every single event. So I'm starting to build this board less with people I want to hang out with and more with people that want to get involved and make a difference.

Jeff Porter: Sure.

Mike Pappy: And so there's some turnover that needs to happen, and it is happening. Right now I'd say we're pretty strong, but I leave it up to them. I've had three board members leave — two of them because they felt bad about not helping, not being involved, not being around, just because life has taken so much from them. They're busy with their day-to-day. And I don't want that. I tell them, "Take a step back. Come back when you're ready. I know you're busy — promotion, new job, whatever it is. Come back when you're ready. I don't want you to feel bad being on my board."

Mike Pappy: Another one stepped down because I don't think we're mature enough for them. Our bylaws are good, but they're not as tight as he wanted them to be. Our meetings are twice a year rather than every other week. And I don't need to put that stress on my board that you have to be at a meeting every Friday at 10 o'clock. I think he was looking for more of that involvement. So I looked at it and said, we're not in a maturity area where you are yet. We're effective. We raise money. We award the money and we're good. But for him, we just weren't there. He had a ton of ideas, and I'm looking at myself going, I have no idea how to do those without help.

Jeff Porter: Well, and it's unfortunate that that individual didn't want to step back to where you're at and help you guys get there. Because I know you guys are primarily, in terms of fundraising right now, funded through events, right? We've talked about that. So let's talk about the other side of this then. Kristen, I know you've worked with boards running fundraising events. What's been your experience on that side? What kind of insights would you share with other people who are in the inner workings of managing and planning their event — maybe as staff or maybe as a volunteer who has to deal with a board?

Kristen: Well, I think to Mike's point, it really helps to know who you are as an organization and who you want on your board and what kind of people you want there. One helpful first step is working internally with your staff, with your organization, to figure out what kind of board you want and who you are. Is it the workers who are there to volunteer at every event and just do? Is it the more strategic people? Or the people with connections and deep pockets? Or is it a combination of all of those? I think in a perfect world, you have a little bit of everything in every board member. But really being clear about what you're expecting of your board member and what that job description looks like, and then how that translates realistically into the outcome of your fundraising efforts — if you don't have a staff, your board, in most cases around a fundraising event, is going to be your staff.

Jeff Porter: Right.

Kristen: And so it really helps to set that expectation with them: "Hey, we're going to need help here. We don't have more than one or two full-time people doing this." Or maybe it's a completely small nonprofit that doesn't have any full-time staff. And so you really are relying on the board to step up and do things. I think it is important, especially for you guys as well, right? We've talked about this — going back and saying, "This is what I need from you. I need you to show up." And it sounds like, at the same time, you also need to set some standards or expectations. "Hey, we are small. It's not going to be as tight as you want. It's not going to be the perfect check-in. It's not going to be the perfect experience. I might get your VIP table assignment wrong. I might need you to take out the trash at the end of the night."

Jeff Porter: Right, so they'll do that?

Kristen: Well, no, I'm kidding! I think people in their cars and in their earbuds are saying the same thing right now.

Mike Pappy: The one thing I will say is, you're right. Again, we're a smaller organization right now. We don't have — they're all volunteers. And to what you said, a good board is made up of people that are either going to be doers, people that can write a big check — and that's really what they want, they just want to write a check and have fun at the gala or the events — and then there are others participating on the strategy side. So they're either writing a check, they're doing something, or they're volunteering a lot, which is what you need. Board members in startup nonprofits are a lot like employees at startup companies where everybody's wearing a ton of hats. And I've found that if you can run a nonprofit like you run a for-profit organization, you're going to have success because you're not just relying on the money coming in.

Mike Pappy: But when you talk about an event — here's a good story for you — the leader of that event, which is me for our golf and gala, you've got to be clear about what you need. You can't do it all yourself. The first year we did it, it was me doing a lot of the things — putting it together, talking to the venue, talking to the sponsors, doing all of that. And by the time the event arrived, I'm trying to tell people what to do, and that just gets lost in translation. Fast forward to this year, we hired an event coordinator, and I told her when we hired her, "All I need is that quarterback for the week. I need somebody for that week to run things."

Mike Pappy: And my board said two things. One, you're going to rehire the event coordinator. Two, you're going to give her more to do. They said, "We don't need you knowing and doing everything. We've got your vision. We know what you want. We've been here three years. You need to let go of the reins." Which is my goal next year — to let go of the reins but let them know exactly what I need. So I need to be more directive with my board so they know what I'm looking for. And the people I've got on my board are fantastic right now. I'm happy with them.

Mike Pappy: But I think you've got to point it to the leader. I know you wanted to go more toward board members in this conversation, but I think if you're leading that board, you're the executive director, and you're not directing with any type of clarity, you're going to get board members that maybe don't know what's going on.

Jeff Porter: Well, I think that's a good point. You either need to manage your board, or your board is going to manage you.

Mike Pappy: That's exactly it. A shorter way of saying it. Yes.

Jeff Porter: And I think what you're saying is spot on — now you're starting to see, "Okay, I need to set very clear expectations. It can't all be in my head." I remember two years ago going to your event and everybody — when a question needed answered, they were looking for you.

Mike Pappy: Yep.

Jeff Porter: Right. And so I 100% understand what you're saying. And I think for the board members who want to help, that is incredibly helpful for them. It goes a long way when you give your board members clear expectations. "Hey, we're setting up at this event. I need people there at 2 o'clock. And if it's not you coming, find some volunteers on your behalf that are going to come and help us." Or "I need auction items for our auction." We would have board meetings — my event just ran in October — we had regular board meetings and we would tell them, "Here's a spreadsheet of some stuff that we want, or you guys give us ideas, but I need you to commit to going out and getting something, because you have connections in the community. We want you to leverage those to help us raise money." Or "Hey, we need you to help us sell some tables, or we need you to help us sell some sponsorships."

Jeff Porter: So outside of just the event logistics of saying, "I need some help specifically to pull off a gala and a golf tournament," let's back up a second and take the point you're making and really amplify it: I need help way out here in front of this thing. We're talking event-specific stuff — sponsorships, ticket sales. For us, it was table sales. I need tables sold. And I expect board members to help sell tables. I expect board members to buy tables. But not everybody is financially able to do that, so I do expect you to go out there and help us find people who will fill those tables. And then I expect you to help us with auction or other types of things that we might be doing at the event. Maybe there are connections to groups that would come in, maybe it's a connection to the caterer, maybe it's a connection to one of our mutually favorite guys, Rocker's Spirits — a connection to Dustin to say, "Hey, can you help us get that type of person in here to create something special for our event?" I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but...

Mike Pappy: No, I think that's spot on. And to the point of being as clear as you can about what you need for that event, you're basically opening it up to tell your board members the expectations. And if they don't perform, that's the conversation you have either after the event or in the year-end reviews. "You wanted to be involved, but you didn't do X, or you didn't do Y. I needed you to bring in tables and you didn't bring in any. You brought in a $20 bottle of wine and that's it for the wine pull."

Jeff Porter: And you wanted a free ticket.

Mike Pappy: And you wanted a free ticket, yeah. And you gave the staff grief at the door.

Kristen: That never happens, does it?

Mike Pappy: Never happens. That's not my board.

Kristen: No, just hypothetically.

Mike Pappy: Hypothetically, yes. But to your point, I think that's absolutely right. But the best way to do that is you've got to have some control over it, right? So if I tell 12 other people, "Go sell me tables," and I know I only have room for 40 tables, and they all sell a whole bunch of tables — we may be pushing it. It's more like, "I need these people selling tables. Who wants to go get sponsorships?" And I've got a couple of people on my board that are the best schmoozers you will ever meet. Because of them, we've got Anheuser-Busch working with our gala, we've got Rocker's Spirits working with our gala, we've got Orange Swift sending us wine, Buffalo Trace sending us their stuff...

Kristen: So they'll take a bottle of Lauren Swift on my table next year, Mike?

Mike Pappy: Okay, I'm working on it! But that's the other piece — who knows these people in the community that want to help a foundation and get their name connected with it? So some of my board members are better at that than others. Some people won't do that. They don't want to. I don't expect them to. But those folks — okay, then I need you to show up on Wednesday before the Saturday event and start filling bags for the golfers, or start getting the tables ready, or start putting all the auction items where they need to be. Getting everything into Handbid — and that's not a shameless plug, I mean, that's why we're here — so Handbid works smoothly, which it always does. But it's getting those people involved in the ways that they want to.

Kristen: Or the ways that they can.

Mike Pappy: Or the ways that they can. You have introverts, extroverts. "What do you want to do?"

Kristen: And you're steering that a little bit, I would think.

Mike Pappy: Yep. So you're like, "Okay, I know this person's not going to be the best at that job, so I'm going to steer them in this direction." That makes a lot of sense.

Kristen: So you've managed board members. Well, I'm sitting here thinking — there's what they say they're going to do and maybe what they're actually doing, not just the conversation of what they're capable of doing. So I had a board member that had all these connections and was going to open all these doors. But when it came down to it, it was more like, "I need you to, at the very least, warm that person up and say, 'Hey, Kristen with this organization is going to call you' — make the introduction for me." And they'd say, "Well, that's your job." Or "I need help getting the auction items into the software." "Well, that's your job." So let's talk a little bit about managing board members that way — where they're willing to help, but they're not always willing to do the actual work.

Jeff Porter: And obviously every organization might have some tweaks to this, but I feel my role as a board member is to help drive the strategic direction of the organization. I don't mind getting my hands dirty when it's time to go fundraising. I don't mind participating in my portion of that, or driving sponsorships, or whatever. But ultimately, the organization, if it's raising money, needs to be growing and using that money for its intended purpose. So our goal is to oversee that — maybe help grow the staff, put a succession plan in place, all that kind of stuff. But at the same time, the staff needs to also remind us as board members: "Hey, you're here to support us. We don't work for you. In a way, you kind of work for us."

Jeff Porter: And I don't mean that in any pompous way, but sometimes you have to remind board members of that. And I think sometimes as board members, we have to remember that. The staff is there to help advance the organization. And if things aren't happening in a certain way, we need to step in and redirect them in a really professional way. Because I've seen board members berate staff. I can't stand it. These people don't make a ton of money. You know exactly how much they make if you're a board member in most cases, and you realize how much time they're putting into this.

Jeff Porter: And you also realize that in some cases, they're not going to meet your standards. You might be the CEO of an organization and say, "This is how my board meetings run. Why can't the organization's board meeting run that way? Here's how organized my events are. Why can't their events be organized that way?" But you're also probably the same person complaining about how much money they're spending on staff or software. And so you have to understand what the tradeoffs are.

Jeff Porter: Complaining or creating noise the day before an event — it's too late. At that point, you're just going to get them off their game. They're not going to do well.

Kristen: We've already had about 45 minutes of sleep in 48 hours.

Jeff Porter: Exactly right. So Kristen, would you share some perspective with a nonprofit, whether it's a staff person or a volunteer who's managing the board? Because it sounds like we're talking about how there are corporate for-profit boards, which are there to hold a business accountable and manage the CEO or leadership. And there's a difference between that and a nonprofit board that's there to work with you to advance the mission. How would a nonprofit person reframe that for somebody who's thinking in more of a for-profit mindset as a board member? On the board member side?

Kristen: Yeah.

Mike Pappy: Sure. Well, I was going to say that it's a two-way street, right? My experience on the education board that I'm on — to your point, they have a great staff. Their CEO is fantastic. The staff's really good, and we meet twice a year. It's a very well-funded organization. The board is great — sitting in those meetings, there are some people that know what they're doing. They question the financials, they question the strategy, but they put a lot of support behind the staff. But I will say this: the two-way street is, as a board member, you're bringing your expertise to that organization. For you, Jeff, it's the strategic part. For me, it would be more of a sales and revenue generation role — that's what I've been doing a lot of my life. My side of the street is reaching out to them and their business development person — not just "here's a name to reach out to," but understanding their strategy, working with that staff member to take things to the next level.

Mike Pappy: I don't expect you to do all the work, but I expect that because you're on my board, you're invested enough personally to want us to succeed, and you're going to give me some time. It can't be, "I'll give you half an hour over coffee." It's, "Jeff, I need an hour a week for the next month to build this." And as a board member, I think that's where the expectation from staff should be. Board members have to realize: you don't have to do the work, but you've got to bring your brain and share it.

Jeff Porter: Yeah, for sure. And I think also, as it relates to being a board member, you have to put things in perspective of where the organization is at. I recently — and this doesn't happen often — but here I am in the role that I'm in, and I'm on the board of an organization that's running a fundraising event. They threw me on the events committee. I made it clear: "Hey look, you guys have a staff that will do the work. I'm here to help guide. I'll do whatever you ask me to do, but don't hand me an empty spreadsheet and tell me to go out and get auction items. You guys are going to do that, but I will definitely give you some input and direction."

Jeff Porter: And did everything run smoothly at this event? No. It wasn't perfect. But it was a great first start. For an organization that hadn't run a fundraiser in five years, I was actually really impressed. And they're not fundraisers — they're great at what they do. They're not event planners. They're not organizers. So for everything that came together, did it meet a standard that I think it ultimately needs to? No. But I had board members berating the staff for how it went. And I'm like, that's not where we need to go.

Jeff Porter: So I think board members need to set expectations that are fair and appropriate. The slide decks aren't going to be perfect at your board meeting. The organization isn't going to be perfect. The analysis they're showing you isn't going to be complete. But you have to take them from that point and just give them another notch forward. Say, "Hey, great start. You got to this point. Let's talk about how at the next meeting you do this, or at the next event, let's make these changes." Because let's be honest — at the end of the day, nobody's dying here. And sometimes it feels like you are. I see the staff and they're on pins and needles around board members, and board members are giving them laser eyes at events. We will all live another day. There will be another opportunity to raise money. So if the paddle raise doesn't go the way you want, or the speech wasn't as great as you hoped, it won't matter. Everybody in that room has a heart for your organization. They're going to give you money anyway.

Jeff Porter: And I think sometimes the staff forgets that. They'll say, "Oh my God, these board members are so upset, and none of their donors are going to give." That's not necessarily true. So what staff members can keep in mind is to let some of the water roll off your back. You're going to have board members that are grumpy, and they're going to give you a comment that things didn't go well — or one of their people at their table got the wrong entree, or the bar line was too long, whatever it is. Let it roll off your back. Don't take it personally. And then more importantly, those board members need to knock that stuff off. Just help people start where they're at.

Kristen: Well, and I think it's interesting as we continue to talk here. To your point, there's for-profit boards and there's nonprofit boards. And nonprofit organizations that have a staff — they're even different from, for example, Mike's organization that doesn't have staff.

Mike Pappy: Right. So my board members are my staff, to what you said. And there are people that want to be involved. We've set what we want from them and they're great. But going back to where you have a staff and a big mission, it's worth board members asking themselves: why am I on this board?

Mike Pappy: And it's not just — some board members are going to want to be on a board because they want the cachet. "I'm on this board. I do this and I get the LinkedIn badge."

Mike Pappy: Where I think if you approach it as a board member of, "Okay, this organization's mission fits into my belief system, my value system" — I'm not going to go get a $200 gift card to this steakhouse and bring it in for the auction item and call it a day. What I will do is show up, be present, and if I'm a board member, I've got influence over my circle of friends. I'm bringing them, because if we all give a certain amount of money, the organization I sit on the board for is going to be better.

Mike Pappy: Board members have to go in with that mentality. And I think if you're running that staff or you're the executive director and they don't have that mentality — no matter who they are or how big their influence — it may be time to part ways. Because to your point, they're going to be a fly in the ointment. You don't need that. People with passion and vision for what you're doing — even if they're introverts and don't know that many people — are going to be more helpful than somebody who knows everybody on the planet but is there to criticize and just update their LinkedIn profile.

Jeff Porter: Amen.

Kristen: And the badge on their name tag.

Mike Pappy: Yeah, people with passion and compassion.

Jeff Porter: By the way, you can't teach that, right? An argument I got from certain board members sometimes — not all — was, "Well, we didn't bring more money in, but we brought awareness. More people know about the cause." That could probably be a whole different podcast topic. But awareness doesn't fund the research. Awareness doesn't...

Mike Pappy: Well, it's — what does that awareness do? I think awareness is important. However, awareness of someone checking my LinkedIn profile — that awareness is... Okay, "I brought awareness in." But real awareness is sitting in those three tables over there. They each purchased a table of eight. That's 24 people who weren't here last year.

Jeff Porter: And I think, again, if you're on a board and you're not invested emotionally, why are you on the board? I think it's a look in the mirror to ask yourself that question. And it's also, who are you recruiting? Because I get it — it's nice to have a legal expert on your board. It's nice to have an accounting expert on your board. These are all nice to have. But if you're not finding that person who's also emotionally connected to what you do, then they're not always the best board members. And they don't typically stick. And if they do roll in, they're not always the most cooperative.

Jeff Porter: I've learned this the hard way. We've recruited board members in our organization because you feel like they fill some professional gap, or "Oh, they're famous" or "They're really rich." And we all know rich people are not necessarily generous, right? Generous people are generous. So it's one of those things where they don't always work out in your favor, and they're just going to create headaches for you. So I agree with you 100%. I really do think it's important who you recruit to your board. And I get it — in the beginning, it's a lot of workers.

Mike Pappy: Yep.

Jeff Porter: And so to kind of summarize what we've talked about: you bring in a lot of workers up front, you start raising money. Then you start to add different types of people to your board who are going to grow the people coming to your event — maybe the numbers or the types of people. And then maybe they're going to help give you strategic direction. They're going to help ratchet up your maturity level year over year as an organization. Those are all good things.

Mike Pappy: Yeah, it's interesting. The way you say that — I feel kind of, I don't know what the terminology is, but it's like "every dog has its day" or whatever. When I started the board, I got people that I wanted to work with, that I wanted to be around, that wanted to be around me and this mission. And we've got people — the person that does a lot of our legal stuff and advises me? She's not on the board, and she doesn't want to be on the board, but she's invested. I've got somebody who just finished building my website, and she's not on the board, but she wants to be invested. And that's somebody I'm talking to about joining my board, for the reason that she's done all this work and never asked for anything.

Mike Pappy: So to your point, boards go through phases. As an executive director or leader of a board, I think you've got to realize that boards evolve — from just a bunch of people wanting to have fun and do good, to "Holy cow, we just raised a bunch of money." Now we've got to use it. Because in a year, when I stand up in front of all these people and say, "We raised $100,000 last year and we didn't give any of it away" — well, I guess no first responders got hurt? That's not going to fly.

Mike Pappy: So it's like, how do we actually put this into action? And then you start seeing people who are like, "I'm too busy to do what I need to do, so I need to step down from the board." Okay, now I need somebody on the board. And then you start to — I don't want to say upgrade, but you start getting purposeful people on your board that have a clear understanding of what they're supposed to do. And all of that's evolving, like anything. This is year three, and our board is getting better.

Jeff Porter: So to your point about awareness and auction items — they need to be thinking about that right after the event's over. "What are we doing next year?" When you're going to have to assemble them, you're going to have to think about that. And opening it up to the point of: if you're not in this, if you don't want to be in this, whether it's somebody on my board or somebody on a board talking with staff, figure out a way to get out of it but still help.

Jeff Porter: We could talk for hours about boards. And I'll tell you what — everybody's got an opinion about them. I think people listening to this podcast are going to be like, "They didn't talk about X, they didn't talk about Y," or "They're way off base there." Opinions are going to be running rampant after this.

Jeff Porter: To close this up, I'd say one thing: as an executive director, you've got to look at your members and say, "What accountability do you have for them? How do you hold them accountable to what you want?" And two, if you're a board member, how are you being held accountable, and are you invested in this? Because if I'm on a board, I want everybody to know I'm on this board because I want them helping this organization and making it grow. That's no different from the executive director down to the person who takes out the trash. You want everybody pulling in the same direction — wanting this organization to fly and everybody to know they were a part of it.

Kristen: And I think, to your point, board members also need to hold each other accountable. As a board member, I need to look around and see how everybody else is performing and behaving — "Hey, we need to help Kristen in this way," or "As a fellow board member, I need you to help me accomplish something." And try to bring people in, because it's hard. A lot of board members out there want to provide their expertise — in more cases just their opinion. But that opinion doesn't always advance the organization. Sometimes it can.

Jeff Porter: And I would give this perspective to anybody on staff, because having done this now — having run thousands of events and working directly with staff — I see both sides. What we've seen work is finding internal champions on your board, people you can connect with one-on-one, and leveraging them. So if you've got a very difficult board — one that likes to give opinions but doesn't always want to take risks, or you don't feel is allowing you to take risks or do the things you want to do as an executive director or development director to really advance the organization — start finding those champions inside the board and leverage them to help you get those decisions made.

Jeff Porter: We hear it all the time: "I've got to take this decision to my board." I'm thinking, do you really? I get it — when you're a small organization and your board is your staff, that's one thing if you want to have a conversation about it. But even in small organizations, you don't have to make a lot of group decisions. You know where everybody's expertise lies. And as you get bigger, the focus really becomes how board members can help the staff achieve that mission.

Mike Pappy: And that's about as easy to sum it up right there. That was awesome.

Jeff Porter: Yeah. And I would just add: for board members out there, setting expectations, having compassion for hardworking staff — that goes a long way. Obviously your job is to help advance them, but don't berate them and don't scare them out of it either.

Jeff Porter: So, Mike, thank you so much. Kristen, thank you for participating as well. This has been a great conversation about boards, and best of luck with your board.