EP 28: Is Your Autographed Memorabilia Real?

Jeff: Welcome to the Elevate Your Event podcast, where we talk about how to plan and execute an unforgettable event that will dazzle your guests and generate more income for your organization. From fundraising and securing trendy auction items to event production and logistics, get the best tips and advice from seasoned fundraising and event professionals who have been in your shoes.

Jeff: Welcome back to the Elevate Your Event podcast, where we talk about all the ways that we can help you make your next fundraising event better than the last one. Today we have a really cool topic, and this is probably one that most of our clients don't think about, but once we educate them on it, they become really interested. It's around the idea of authenticated merchandise -- typically signed stuff. So in the studio with me today is Kristen Wheeler.

Kristen: Yeah, I'm excited about this topic. We've been talking about having this episode for a long time.

Jeff: I know. Because it comes up every time we do an event, and we're looking around saying, is that signature real or not? But the really special guest we have on the podcast today is a good friend of mine, Ray Schulte. Ray, go ahead and introduce yourself. Talk about your company and your background as it relates to memorabilia.

Ray: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I always enjoy talking about this. If there's any way that I can contribute to somebody looking down the right path and doing the right things, that's satisfaction for me, because once you go down the wrong path, it's hard to get on the right one. Authentication is so important. We've had conversations over and over about this and trust. Trust in your business is really important too. And as you mentioned, a lot of the people, especially in the nonprofit sector, they don't know what they don't know. And that's an issue.

Ray: Education is very important too. I know you pay attention to this and work to educate the clients that you have as much as possible. But there's a lot of turnover and a lot of things going on in the category. My background comes from when I was with J. Walter Thompson, the New York ad agency, back in the 80s. I got the idea that I wanted to package ballplayers just like I packaged a box of hot cocoa on the retail shelf. Back in those days, that wasn't happening. So I quit -- and I look back and go, wow, what did I do? But it was one of those impulse moves and I'm glad I did it.

Ray: I started working with athletes, packaging athletes. Sugar Ray Leonard was one of the first guys that got me to this point where I felt there was an opportunity. Pete Maravich was another guy. Don Mattingly was my first client. And along with representing an athlete, it's not just maximizing opportunities -- it's protecting them from the elements and protecting them from the people out there that want to take advantage of them. Back in the 80s, it was pretty rampant in terms of unauthorized forged signatures, whether it was Joe DiMaggio or Mickey Mantle. That had to be cleaned up. I worked closely with Major League Baseball, and we got to the point where we put out a campaign and Major League Baseball started authenticating. People started coming together and understanding the process and the need for it. From that point on, that's kind of what I've been doing.

Ray: It really is not just managing athletes. I've worked with corporates. I've worked with nonprofits in the past, trying to put them in a frame of mind where they can, with confidence, go out and solicit items. Most of the time, an executive director -- he or she -- will do it themselves or hand it off to somebody. But they don't have the background. They don't understand why something is authenticated, why it isn't. And for sure, they can't tell the difference. Many people in my industry can't tell the difference. That's where authentication companies come in -- they help within the industry.

Ray: What I found in the nonprofits was a lot of people were handed down stuff that they didn't even know what it was. Maybe a signed baseball or program or whatever it might be. The first thing they had to do was try to figure out and identify what they had. And then, what do they do with it? At this point in time, I can tell you that if you have something authenticated -- whether it's by a company called JSA, PSA, or Beckett -- it first of all enables you to sell it with confidence, and probably make 20 to 25 percent more than you would make otherwise because of that confidence.

Ray: A lot of people would put their own holograms on items -- local people, I mean. And that doesn't fly when you're trying to sell something to someone in Seattle or Miami. When you're selling things throughout the country, sometimes internationally, you need that level of confidence. Also, for the people watching this: authentication is just an opinion. It's obviously an opinion from somebody who's done their due diligence, somebody who knows the industry, somebody that follows it for a living, but it's still just an opinion. That said, I'd say 95 percent of the time it's correct.

Ray: I just think that's so important, especially in the nonprofit sector. People need to know what they have and how to go about getting it authenticated, and also to look at the value. Many people don't realize how much a Mickey Mantle baseball is worth. What I always say is get to know somebody in the local market that you can trust, who at least has an understanding of the industry and can point you in the right direction and educate you. So that's kind of it in a nutshell.

Jeff: That's good. So let's unravel this. There's a lot in there that I think is going to be helpful. I want to tell a couple of stories. The first one goes in line with charity fundraising and authentication. I had known Ray for some period of time, and my mother-in-law had attended a nonprofit fundraiser. At that fundraiser, she purchased a Mickey Mantle signed baseball. I don't think she was any the wiser about it. She spent a thousand dollars on it. To her, it was great -- the charity got this donated, she's going to spend a thousand dollars with the charity anyway, and she's going to get this great baseball for my grandson.

Jeff: Well, one day as Ray is educating me on all of these things about sports memorabilia, I thought I really should go up into Jake's room, grab this thing, and ask Ray if it's real. I took a photo of it and he was like, "You'd better send this to me -- I don't think so." So I mailed him the baseball. He was off at a conference, and I think he took it and showed it to JSA and PSA, who are both reputable authenticators, and they both said it was fake.

Jeff: It's just a bummer. One of these days I'll replace my son's baseball. He doesn't care right now. But the charity probably had no idea that this was not real, and obviously the bidder -- my grandmother-in-law -- had no idea either. That's the unfortunate part. And this is where the education comes in.

Jeff: Before I tell you where Ray and I met, I'm going to tell another similar story. That was another auction that I was at. Ray was not there. We were walking around and they had a Bruce Springsteen signed guitar. I thought, okay, I've got the drill on this one. I'm just curious whether or not this is real. So I took a photo of it, texted it to Ray. He texted it to another colleague of his, and it came back with a "definitely fake" response.

Jeff: So I had to go tell the auction manager, "Hey, I hate to tell you this. I know you've got up to four thousand dollars in bids on this guitar. This guitar is not real." Of course, she's thinking, how do you know? And I said, because one of the most respected authenticators in the market, somebody who's been on Pawn Stars many times, has seen the photo and is telling me it's not real. So we took it out. We deleted the bids on it and removed it.

Jeff: That opened up the question: where are charities getting this stuff?

Kristen: That was going to be my question for Ray. Other than going directly to organizations like your local baseball club, where should people be looking to have a higher chance of getting an authentically signed piece of memorabilia?

Ray: That's a great question. Just one quick thing before I get into that -- back in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, the Babe Ruth era, these guys would have their secretary sign the ball. Babe Ruth, when he was on his deathbed, had the nurse sign a ball and gave it to his niece. That's why you need to have it authenticated.

Ray: But where you get the product from -- you really just have to find people that you can trust in the industry. There are collectible shops throughout the country, big and small. Get to know these folks, and they can help you out with product too. But ask questions. Find out who they use for authentication. Where do they get their product from?

Ray: If you're really going to be in it for the long haul -- and by long run I mean like five years -- you want to build those relationships, because normally, back in the early days when I was working in the nonprofits, you would just put the feelers out there. Anybody in your congregation or organization would go out and ask people for things. And a lot of times that's where the unauthenticated stuff came from.

Ray: You can talk to a JSA or PSA and they travel around the country. Go to their website, check them out. They may be in Denver, Colorado, in two weeks. What you do is go down there, introduce yourself, and establish a relationship. So that when your next auction comes around, you have somebody you can call and say, "Hey, listen, I've got this great item. What do you think?" They can do a kind of preliminary authentication via email or text, which will give you an initial read -- "Hey, maybe we need to take a closer look," or "Absolutely not, no way."

Ray: I think the key is to get educated, because the more you do that, the bigger the return you're going to have. But at the end of the day, you want a hologram on that piece. A certificate by itself doesn't help unless you have the connection between the item and the certificate, which means you have a hologram on both with the same number. That connects the product. Otherwise, in the old days, people would get a signed baseball and just write their own certificate. It looked like it was real. In a lot of small towns throughout the country, people didn't know any better. "This guy gave me the certificate." "Who is it?" "Joe Smith." Well, Joe Smith is not an authenticator. He may be doing it deliberately or he may have just been naive. Either way, you don't want to handle that situation where someone says, "I spent five hundred dollars and this is not real." From a nonprofit standpoint, that's the last thing you want to hear.

Jeff: I agree. I think the best place to get a piece of signed memorabilia is from the person who's signing it. Maybe even take a photo of you standing next to the person while they sign it. But those are hard to come by. You can go to your local professional sports teams and they will give you stuff. They typically now are doing their own authentication -- giving their own certificates. To me, that feels relatively new because back in the day, even several years ago, we weren't getting those from, say, the Denver Broncos. But now every single item comes with one, and I think that helps.

Ray: But here's the thing, Jeff. One of the things you have to understand is, let's say you get something from the team with a certificate. If there's no connection between the item and the certificate, then someone could just use that certificate for something else. That's why that connection has to be there at all times. It can't be just a generic certificate, even from the team. It's all good will and intention, but it can be misconstrued or deliberately taken advantage of by people out there who do it for a living. There are people who will forge signatures, items, memorabilia. You just have to be aware of that.

Jeff: So let's go back to Kristen's question about where you find something. When we brought up the issue with the Bruce Springsteen guitar being fake, I asked the auction manager where she got it. We looked it up -- Ray and I did -- and it's a website that has everything: Rolling Stones, Bruce Springsteen. They have everything you can think of on this site, and there's like inventory of them. Like they got Bruce to sign ten guitars or something. I thought, okay, that's a little fishy.

Jeff: Then we pull up their terms and conditions. I don't know if you remember this, Ray. They basically said it was a violation of their terms and conditions for you to take any of their stuff and have somebody else authenticate it. I said, that would be like going to the doctor, getting a diagnosis on a heart problem, and the doctor telling you that you're not allowed to talk to any other doctors to see if they're right. No second opinion.

Jeff: Who does that? And then they had some claim about how they're all ex-FBI forensic analysts and signature experts. Anyway, all of it sounded fishy, but especially the part where they don't allow you to take their merchandise and have it authenticated by somebody else.

Jeff: So I look at that and say, if you're out there looking at merchandise and an authenticator tells you you're not allowed to get a second opinion, that's a major red flag worth walking away from.

Kristen: I'm thinking of an example like Peyton Manning, who is not connected with a specific team anymore, but I would bid on something signed by him. I'm sure he has his foundation and his agents and his people that you can write in to request. But what if a friend of a friend of a friend is his next-door neighbor and gets something signed and he tosses it to them? Sure, no problem. You get it authenticated -- but then you don't have a certificate of authenticity. Does the authenticator give you that?

Jeff: The authenticator does. I don't know what you think, Ray. I would probably mail it to Beckett and have them authenticate it or take it to the national conference or something like that.

Ray: I think again, a little knowledge helps. Peyton Manning, we know he's associated with Fanatics. So many of the holograms are going to be from Fanatics. And like you said, if he just tossed a ball to somebody, that's okay, but it's not going to be worth more than you'd think. The great thing about today's world, with the industry being so big now, there are card shows and local shows, regional shows throughout the entire country. Almost every city, large and small, has some kind of card show or signature show.

Ray: An authentication company most likely is at that show, because that's where they make their bread and butter -- from people coming in to get things authenticated. A show is a good place to go to get educated, and a good place to bring your stuff. If you have five items and have no idea whether they're real or what they're worth, you can take them into a show and find credible people who will steer you in the right direction.

Ray: The show I'm going to in Chicago is like the world's largest one for collectibles. Every authentication house, every grading house, every appraisal industry person would be there. A lot of people come for that exact reason -- to get educated and to make contacts. You go into a retail shop or a show, and you're there to make contacts so you have a reference when you need one down the road. If you have an auction six months from now, at least now you have someone to call. "I met that guy in Denver. He's with JSA. I'm going to give him a call. Are they coming by? Do I need to get these authenticated?"

Ray: Obviously it's all based on pricing. A Babe Ruth baseball is going to cost a bit more to authenticate, but the value is more. A third baseman for the Rockies isn't going to be as much. It's all relative. But I think networking is probably the best thing to do. And Jeff, we've talked about this -- just having reference information on the website in terms of people they can contact to get educated. I still think that's a great opportunity.

Jeff: Absolutely it is. And I think that's one of the things that's on us here at Handbid. I think any mobile bidding company should help their customers understand not just where to find reputable providers of this merchandise, but also how to get their stuff authenticated. So we'll make a commitment to do that in the weeks upcoming -- to have some sort of information page on that for sure.

Jeff: So let's also talk about why you need to get this authenticated. The obvious reason is you do not want to sell something that's fake. It's embarrassing to the charity. It's embarrassing to the person buying it. You're not trying to put your donors in that situation.

Jeff: The other reason -- and this is the story of where I first met Ray. We were doing an auction for one of the NHL hockey teams. I was at this event; it was one of their annual gala auction events. They obviously had a ton of signed merchandise from their players. This happened to be the Washington Capitals. I see this guy walk over and they're like, "Hey, this guy wants to meet you." Ray walks up to me and says, "This is really cool software. Did you build it?" We're like, yes. So we start talking, trade business cards.

Jeff: He was pretty excited because he had to leave the auction early, but he got to keep bidding in his car. Hopefully your wife was driving.

Ray: I think she was, yes.

Jeff: About two or three days after the auction closes, Ray copies me on an email to the team. He was commenting on the fact that there was some game-used gear from one of the players, and he says, "This says game-used on it, but these are Bauer shorts, and this hockey player doesn't wear Bauer shorts." Or whatever it was.

Ray: It was Ovechkin, yeah.

Jeff: And I'm like, how does he know that? That's next level. That's like that guy who called into the TV station for adding bird sounds into the golf tournament they were airing -- "those birds are not seasonal to this place or this time."

Ray: But Jeff brings up a great point, because when you're doing auctions and dealing with people who buy vintage memorabilia, you need as much detail as possible. I don't remember if that item was between five hundred and a thousand dollars, but that's a significant price. When you get to that level, it really helps to make sure your copy tells that potential bidder exactly what it is, because that matters.

Ray: The fact that it wasn't his brand told me he didn't wear that. He apparently wore them in warmups, which is what we found out. These guys don't want to get caught photographed in a competitor's brand if they're endorsing a certain brand. I figured it out -- it wasn't difficult for me -- but the point is, you can list it that way if you want, but someone like me is never coming back. And that's not what you want anyway.

Ray: When you're talking about different price levels, from twenty dollars to twenty thousand dollars, it really pays to have enough detail. I want to know every single thing about that item. A lot of nonprofits don't really do that. One, because they don't understand. Two, they don't have the time. But I was running Cal Ripken's auction -- I actually started Cal Ripken's auction when he was going through the Hall of Fame. I dealt with a base of high-end collectors throughout the mid-Atlantic region and across the country. I got their mindset in terms of what they're looking for and what they're expecting.

Ray: A lot of the nonprofits don't feel like it's necessary to put in that detail. But a guy who's going to spend five hundred dollars -- and he's not me -- is going to want to know exactly what's going on with that product. I don't spend anything unless I know what I'm getting. It's not just because there are fakes out there, but misrepresentation, misidentifying, or not giving enough information. I'm not going to spend the money. I'm not going to bid up.

Jeff: You're not trusting it either, probably. I think a lot of our hockey clients have done a really impressive job when it comes to doing this. It's gotten better over the years. But I've learned a lot. I've been doing events for a long time, and then when I got with Ray and we started looking at items, sure, they'll sell. They've got maybe a Beckett certificate of authentication, or a JSA or PSA one. But look at the description. It says "Peyton Manning signed jersey." Okay.

Jeff: Then I hand it to Ray, and we look at the item. It comes back with something like: "Majestic replica jersey, blue, signed by Peyton Manning in black Sharpie, signature on the number nine on the back." I mean, you get all the way down to this level of detail. On baseballs, you list out all the inscriptions -- they'll put "Hall of Fame" or whatever on there. You have to list those because the collectors are looking for that information.

Jeff: And then the number of photos we took. For all those auction platforms out there that give you one photo, I don't know how you effectively do this. When we're looking at something as valuable as a Peyton Manning signed jersey that could go for a thousand dollars -- and in Denver, maybe even more -- you need a close-up of the signature, both sides of the jersey. If I were sitting down with Ray doing this, there would probably be three or four minimum photos, just to make sure that any serious collector who will spend that kind of money is satisfied.

Kristen: So what are those basic elements that charities need to be including in their item descriptions?

Ray: First of all -- and this is different now; I haven't been involved in nonprofit auctions in a couple of years, but I was very heavily involved maybe five, ten years ago. What I saw from the nonprofit side was that they just didn't have the right attitude. They thought, "Well, this is for a good cause. They'll buy it." You can't have that attitude if you want to sustain and build a database of faithful high-end, middle, and low-end supporters. It really helps to cater to them. At least give the appearance that you care and go through the whole process.

Ray: Most of the time, I would talk to somebody and they'd say, "Oh, that's okay, don't worry about it." And I'm thinking, well, you just missed out on four or five hundred dollars in value, because if people knew that was a pretty cool item, they would bid on it. But they're not going to bid unless you give them some meat, so to speak.

Ray: Hopefully that's changed a bit, but it all goes back to how much time they have invested in the nonprofit and their outlook -- do they understand that if they put in some time, they're going to make 30, 40, 50 percent more money and build a loyal base? And then you can go out and ask for higher-value items because you know you have that loyal base.

Ray: With my base at Ripken Baseball, I knew the top 25 bidders. I knew what each one focused on -- some guys were into game-used fielding gloves, others were bats, others were jerseys. I made sure that every time we had something, we gave them everything they needed to make that purchase. So that when they spent twenty thousand dollars on that Brooks Robinson fielding glove, they were going to say, "Yeah, okay. I'm good with that."

Ray: That's a bit of an extreme, but somebody spending five hundred or a thousand dollars at a community nonprofit -- that's a lot of money to them. They still want that confidence. I've always said in conversations with Jeff that these executive directors, or the people they hand this responsibility off to, it can really help to be in a community where they can talk to each other. Some have better expertise than others, but if they can develop that community, it would help everybody -- whether it's the Boston Celtics or the L.A. Clippers or wherever it may be. It's an advantage.

Jeff: I agree. Hey, look, our service team is happy to help too. If you're not exactly sure where to go, we can point you to the resources that Ray's described. If you're having a hard time finding sports memorabilia, I'll give you a couple tips and tricks. If you don't feel like you can get it locally, I understand. Look on Handbid. Sometimes -- and this is funny -- you will find memorabilia up there that's in a city where it's just not going to sell well. I've found Denver stuff in other auctions and I'll bid on it at 30 to 40 percent of what I think it can sell for here. You're paying for it, but you're going to make a profit on it.

Jeff: Another good place -- and I know, Ray, you know these guys well -- is Pristine Auction. I think they're great. I've gone onto their sports memorabilia site. You can get some reasonable deals there. Stuff sells quickly. Obviously the more popular items are going to be more expensive. But I bought a John Elway jersey on there for, I think, three hundred fifty dollars, authenticated with a certificate. And a John Elway jersey will sell in Denver for over double that at an auction. So sometimes you just need to think through -- maybe it's not going to be free, but it's a lot easier than trying to chase John Elway down on the Cherry Hills golf course and ask for a signature.

Ray: Jeff, that's a good point. Pristine is a great place to check out what's out there in the market, what things are going for, what the value is. You'll see that 100 percent of it is authenticated.

Ray: For me, it's about knowing what you can do in terms of understanding value. And the whole thing about auctions -- I wouldn't say I'm a connoisseur by any means, but I'm a realist. Bidding is bidding, and it helps to give that experience to these people. How many nonprofits will put something out there at retail value? If a baseball has a retail value of three hundred fifty dollars and they put it out there for three hundred fifty, you don't get that bidding excitement. In auctions, if you put it out there for twenty or thirty dollars, yeah, you take a little bit of a risk, but you get those three or four people bidding, and then all of a sudden it's at five hundred. So you really need to have a little confidence. Obviously, it helps to know the category a bit better so you can take that approach.

Ray: True bidders don't want to come in and just buy at retail. I remember talking to a few nonprofits and saying, "Just give it a try. You don't have to do it with all 300 items. Take five, ten, twenty items, price them at twenty dollars, make a separate category, and get people thinking that way." Sometimes they're going to get a deal, but sometimes you're going to make money too. If nothing else, you've got them in your database and they're loyal. All of this goes into what I consider a successful nonprofit auction. This entire mindset we've been talking about is so important. I've always been high on what you've done and your willingness to talk to the nonprofits, educate them, and be a resource. I think that's so important.

Jeff: I appreciate that. And that's a good way to kind of summarize and wrap up this conversation, which has hopefully been helpful for everybody listening or watching. So as we talked about this, unfortunately, there's a lot of fake stuff out there. How do you determine what's fake and what's not? You need to have some sort of authentication on it. There are only a handful of respectable authenticators. If you have items or merchandise that are not authenticated and have a signature on them, you should get them authenticated. My recommendation is JSA, PSA, or Beckett. We will put some resources out there for you on the Handbid website that will point you in those directions.

Jeff: Outside of that, if you're working with any authenticator who tells you that you can't get a second opinion, they are not the authenticator you should be working with. The other super important point is that the item and the certificate need to have a matching hologram, so you know those two things are connected. Because to your point, a sports team could print out 55 or 100 certificates that just sit in a box and grab one every time they send something out. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about looking at a specific item, authenticating that particular item as real, and putting the sticker on it.

Jeff: And there are others. I'm not going to say these are the only ones. Ray, we can work with you to get the list of all valid authenticators. But I think that's a good place to start, because it gives you the comfort that the item you're offering to your bidders, donors, or most respected supporters is real. So when you walk into their house a year later and you're staring at the signed guitar on the wall, you don't have to say to yourself, "Oh, bummer, I sold them a fake one."

Ray: The authenticators travel throughout the country. They're on the road all the time. All the authentication companies cover the entire country. There are ways of finding out when they're going to be in your town, and they're probably there quite a few times during the course of the year. If nothing else, just go to meet them, talk to them, ease your mind a little bit about the unknown, and build a good networking source for down the road.

Jeff: Right. You pull these donations throughout the year. You could figure out when one of those folks is in town. You already know them, so set up your appointment, find out what show they're at or what store they're at, roll in there, and bring your latest donations to get authenticated.

Ray: One more thing, Jeff. If you have quantity -- like 20, 30, 50, even 100 items -- you could actually call up JSA, Beckett, or PSA, and they will come to your place. You can get one or two of their people to come to your office and authenticate right there on site. There's no reason you can't connect with these people.

Jeff: That's great advice. So we have it, it's authenticated, we know it's real. Now let's describe the item in a way that's going to be meaningful to the real collectors out there. Because let's be honest, yes, you'll have a few donors going after this, but you can make considerably more money if there's anybody who has an interest in this particular item or the category in general. By improving your item descriptions and putting in the right number of photos -- taking photos of the right parts of the item -- you can significantly increase its value to those bidding online. Would you agree?

Ray: Absolutely.

Kristen: Absolutely.

Jeff: So that's it for this conversation. If you need help finding these things, we mentioned a few places. Reach out to us and we're happy to help you find something. We'll put it all in the show notes too so you can click through.

Jeff: Ray, this has been an absolute pleasure. It's always good to talk to you. Stay cool down there in Phoenix.

Ray: We'll try. Thank you very much for having me.

Jeff: All right. Well, I'm going to wrap up this episode of the Elevate Your Event podcast. We thank you so much for all you do. For the listeners out there, leave us a five-star review. If you found this information helpful, please pass on your questions and comments to us. You guys have been doing that; it's been great. Share this podcast. If you know of anybody who might be interested in this particular topic or just the general topic of fundraising, this would be helpful for us and for them if you connected us. So until next time, happy fundraising.